Truth, Reconciliation and National Unity Commission (TRNUC) |04 February 2020

Ex-army officers give testimonies

The Truth, Reconciliation and National Unity Commission (TRNUC) resumed its hearing sessions yesterday after a short break.

Apart from a session with a general witness, the whole hearing was mostly on testimonies from ex-senior officers of the Seychelles Defence Forces (SDF) at the time and who were members of the Defence Forces Council.

Before the start of the hearing, the chairperson of the commission, Gabrielle McIntyre, noted that to minimise conflicts between persons which can hinder the commission’s objective of reconciliation, those giving evidence should only speak about what they know to be true and to avoid making remarks about others that maybe unfounded and which are not related to the specific complaint under investigation.

She also reminded those wishing to file a complaint to notify the commission before February 9, 2020.

Before calling in the first witness, the commission allowed Cyril Lau-Tee to correct some aspects of his evidence given on January 22, 2020. In his intervention he mentioned David Rath which should have been Daniel Rath and Danny Lucas which should have been Philip Lucas.

He also offered his apologies to the persons affected.

Commissioner Bishop James Wong Yin Song was also back in the chair after missing out on the January sessions due to other commitments.

Ex-chief presidential security officer Rolly Marie

Making his second appearance before the commission, ex-high ranking army officer, Rolly Marie, was the first person to give evidence on various positions he held after the coup d’etat of June 5, 1977 namely in security in general, presidential security and on the Defence Forces Council that guided the work of the then Seychelles Defence Forces (SDF). He also claimed that Tanzanians soldiers also sat on the council.

Mr Marie, who was a commanding officer and also member on the council, said that the activities of the Defence Forces Council, headed by the commander in chief (the late President Albert Rene) was guided by the Defence Forces Act which contain all the parameters of the army.

He said that after the coup, he was appointed to be in charge of the president’s security and he recruited a few people to work with him. He noted that the French government assisted in training of the presidential security personnel in VIP protection. He noted that during his time as chief presidential security officer, he also ordered surveillance on people as part of his job to contain threats against the president.

On claims that he was aware that the president listened to tapped conversations, he stated that security personnel were stationed outside of the office and around the building and nobody, including himself, were stationed inside of the president’s office, and as such they wouldn’t know what happened inside. He further said that the army rebellion in 1982 was a surprise to him although he had a hunch that the mercenary attack of 1981 could happen one day.

Though he was involved in state security, Mr Marie claimed that he had never given orders and was never given orders or received orders from any one to eliminate anybody deemed a threat to the President. He also claimed that he was not involved in any killings or disappearances that happened during the one party state and noted that though in charge of the security of the president, he never received information or had prior knowledge that such events were to happen.

Mr Marie, who before the coup was a special branch officer with the police force, said he was sacked from the army in 1986 after a fall-out with the President on the grounds that he was involved in a counter coup. The hearing then went into closed session for Mr Marie to give more details as to why he was sacked from the army.

Ex-high ranking para-military officer François Jackson

The second person called in before the commission to explain his role on the Defence Forces Council was ex-high ranking para-military officer François Jackson, who sat on the council from 1986 up to 1993. He said that the role of the council at that time was more to review promotions and to look at budgets, procurements, uniforms, disciplinary actions, among others but excluding security issues as the threats against the country were down as compared to what it had been in the 1980s.

Thus to him the council was more administrative meeting of senior army officers to discuss day to day army issues. Any other issues, including security issues, could have possibly been dealt with by other private committees. He noted that he resigned from the council in 1993 following his engagement as a captain on Air Seychelles’ Boeing 767.

Mr Jackson was in charge of the para-military air wing at Pointe Larue from 1980 until he left the army. He said that during his time in the army he was never given any illegal order to follow.

Dobin Samson appears in Case 094 of Ramesh Naidoo

Dobin Samson appeared again before the commission as a general witness to give clarity on the issue of security clearance manned by State House and also on allegation in Case 094 by Ramesh Naidoo who had claimed that upon him (Mr Naidoo) questioning the value of two Maserati cars imported by Mukesh Valabhji and Glenny Savy, he was sent by his supervisor to discuss the matter with Mr Samson who told him it was not his (Naidoo) duty to question the value of the two cars.

Mr Samson said he did not recall if Mr Naidoo was asked to see him or he (Mr Samson) had asked to see him and on the whole he never recalled if he had ever seen Mr Naidoo in his office. He claimed he had never talked to Mr Naidoo about Maserati cars either and if he had he would have referred him to one of his staff, Charles Morin, who had customs experience and who dealt with these types of issues.

He alleged that when he was at State House back then, he had information that Mr Naidoo had imported a car through Dominium Traders where on two occasions, he (Naidoo) issued cheques without sufficient funds to pay customs.

Mr Samson stated that he once met Mr Naidoo, not about the two cars, but about issues with his (Naidoo) septic tank in relation with planning permission for the construction of his building which he (Samson) did not entertain. He claimed he never ordered anybody to follow Mr Naidoo as there was no reason for him to do so and if he had done so, Mr Naidoo would never had known he was being followed.

Working in the security unit at State House with Mr Rolly Marie, who he alleged was also in charge of internal security, Mr Samson said that he only typed the intelligence gathered and he was not part of the team to analyse information or involved in putting together information for possible operation if maybe.

He said that following the sacking of Mr Marie from State House in 1986, he was approached by President Albert Rene to take charge of the security unit and not the internal security as alleged by others coming before the commission. He noted that internal security involves the army, the police among others and they did not appear under his portfolio.

On security clearance, Mr Samson said that story about it at the time was to categorise and classify government posts and he was part of a committee to see this exercise along with the Minister for Defence, Ogilvy Berlouis, principal secretary for Defence Ralph Adam, principal secretary for Administration Simone Testa and a British national.

He explained that the government departments were classed according to its sensitivity in terms of high risks and lower risks and people were employed based on their past records. He further said that upon a person being requested for employment by the organisations, it was the defence minister and its principal secretary, through further intelligence gathering, who had the final say on who is recruited or not. He noted though as director of the security unit he did sign documents in relation to security clearance which he said had nothing to do with preventing people or certain people to work in the country. He noted that when Mr Berlouis resigned, it was President Albert Rene who chaired the committee.

Mr Samson said that on the notion ‘ek nou pa ek nou’ a lot of people did call or write to his office for him to block other people from getting jobs in government, thinking that that was the norm of security clearance at State House. He stated that to do such thing was not in his vocabulary.

He also claimed he was not involved in the killings and disappearances that happened in the country though he formed part of security unit at State House. He said he learned of those incidents like everybody else and where he worked there were no cells or torture rooms. He noted that he left State House in 1993 and worked at the Seychelles International Airport as the security officer in charge.

Ex-commanding officer in the army, Raymond Bonte

Ex-commanding officer in the army, Raymond Bonte, was the last person to appear before the commission yesterday and it was his second appearance. He was questioned on his role as a commanding officer in the army and also as a member of the Defence Forces Council from 1977 until 1986 when he left the army.

Mr Bonte, who said he does not recall where he was posted as commander officer as he had worked on the various camps, explained that as a commanding officer he was responsible for anything that happened in the camp. He noted that he also delegated part of the work to the person second in command and also to others further down the ranks. He said he doesn’t recall soldiers being beaten under his guard or in other camps other than them enduring physical punishments with heavy backpacks and home economic activities among others. He claimed none of the soldiers under his command in August 1982 were involved in the army rebellion.

As a member of the Defence Forces Council, he said they discussed various issues, including disciplines, logistics among others but have never discussed any killings or disappearances that had happened. He said he was never involved in or in charge of gathering intelligence.

On claims that he was present at the Bel Eau army headquarters where some soldiers, including Andrew Poupouneau who went missing, were being mistreated following the army rebellion of August 1982, Mr Bonte said he does not recall if he was present or not as what he remembered was that he was still nursing an injury at that time.

He further said that no one ever discussed with him the assassination of Simon Denousse, Mike Asher among others and that he heard of their deaths or disappearances like everybody else. He also claimed that he was never involved in any killings or disappearances that happened in the country.

To conclude, Mr Bonte called on the commission to find what happened during the mercenary invasion in 1981 and the people behind it and to investigate those that were killed, kidnapped and were injured.

Mrs McIntyre said that the commission will look into that.

Patrick Joubert